Israelites had 4-5 criteria for determining how Yahweh was the 'true god,' but I won't launch into that here ." Parker: "There are many uses of the plural term of the word Elohim in the Bible." The borders of Moab are from the Zered to the Jabbok, that is both the Moabite and Amorite territories of the J and D traditions. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. Also known as the "Mesha Stele," this remarkable monument was erected about 850 B.C.E. Hadad | Kothar | Melqart | Mot | Moloch | Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Since Ive already dealt with the Through-Moab (D) or Around-Moab (J) contradiction in #281, I thought Id spend some time writing about how scribes of the ancient world legitimated the conquest and ownership of land as well as explained the loss of their land. But according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of idol worship, why would the verse state: And there wasindignation? First, he was Moab's national god. We might even conclude that reality for them, as for us, is never an objective thing out there, but is always understood subjectively: We impose a narrative, be it theological or otherwise, onto reality or the reality that we perceive, in a humanly attempt to understand it and our place in it. Why would I take your advice when you said you are not going to address OP's debate directly? Likewise, whatever the Lord our God has given us, we will possess. The find, known as the Moabite Stone or Mesha Stele, was a monument bearing an inscription commemorating the c. 860 B.C. First, he was Moab's national god. Retrieved from https://www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630. On critical occasions, a human sacrifice was considered necessary to secure the favor of Chemosh. In 2 Kings 3:18-19, Elisha relates Jehovah's prophecy that the armies of Israel will defeat the Moabites: And this is but a light thing in the sight of the Lord: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand. Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who was believed to bring victory to his people when they honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin From this we can deduce a number of probable facts about Chemosh. Little is known about Chemosh; although King Solomon of Israel built a sanctuary to him east of Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:7), the shrine was later demolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23:13). Which god is the creator of the heavens and the earth: Yahweh OR El? In fact, Yahweh appears to be only one of Elyons 70 sons. . (v. 18-19). And from there I took the vessels of Yahweh, and I brought them before Chemosh.". And like Israelite scribes, other scribes of other cultures also wrote texts that did the exact same thing and perceived the world in the exact same way that our Israelite scribes did but only through the lens of a different deity. 2) The Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (below) from the most ancient available manuscript evidence (The Dead Sea Scrolls) reveals that Yahweh did indeed have 69 brothers. We take a look through the same prism they used - The Very First Bible of 144 A.D. - and it results in a perspective that may shock you. So Israel is made up of humans, and Elijah's prophecy is not a prophecy of predestined destruction of Moab. This site requires JavaScript to run correctly. Chemosh, ancient West Semitic deity, revered by the Moabites as their supreme god. Kam, often written as Chemosh, is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age. His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to Jerusalem by King Solomon (1 Kings 11:7). Certainly not Yahweh. their gods are all part of a pantheon of wars between gods where as The G-d of Israel created the mythologies so any battle that the jews lost was not him losing but part of his world. Of all the Molochs, Jehovah becomes supreme, and the other Molochs are forgotten, lost for ever; he is the God of gods. Apparently you didn't read the whole chapter and are deliberately taking it out of context in order to preach your unsupported claims. The 7th century Deuteronomic Tradition (Deut 2:18 & 29), 3. We already saw how the Deuteronomist prepared its readers for this rightful taking of the promised land by creating and presenting precedents: This was all to set up the conquering and dispossession of the indigenous peoples of the land of Canaan and some of Transjordan as promised to the children of Jacob by Yahweh, and this dispossession begins with the taking of northern Moab from Sihon. It makes no sense for Yahweh to be angry with the Israelites for what the king of Moab did; if anything, he'd be mad at the king, and give Israel a victory. Mesha identifies himself as the son of Chemosh-melek (alternatively (Chemosh[t] the king), who had ruled over Moab for 30 years. The Elohim of Abraham and the Elohim of Nahhor, they will judge between us, the Elohim of their father, and Jacob swore with the fear of his father Isaac. Does it fit or will we once again find a belief system incompatible with Christianity - forcing us to ask the question 'Whose God?' Notes: The Very First Bible: https://www . If a Girl says to me "call me tomorrow and we'll go on a date." ", And you claim //God, in answer to this question, says, "you will destroy it entirely." Now, why would there be a great wrath upon Israel if the only god in existence were Yahweh? Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 Listen now (19 min) | Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/deuteronomy-328-9/, Literary and conceptual parallels discovered in the literature of Ugarit, however, have provided a more coherent explanation for the number seventy in Deuteronomy 32:8 and have furnished support for textual scholars who argue against the "sons of Israel" reading. Even the biblical writers are forced to admit that the strategy succeeded: "Then he took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. So, the question of the kings was, "what will God do if we fight Moab." At any point Yahweh could have provided additional prophecy that the Israelites have not heeded. Gods of Egypt are Elohim. Chemosh seems to have also had a taste for blood. "My god helps me win and defeat your god" -> Chemosh vs. Yahweh Temple of Solomon Yahwism Worship of Yahweh by the people of Israel. Scholars contend that both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in different fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition. Your conclusions don't hold water and you spread lies. Would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses to other deities or armies in the Bible? The Amorite territory (i.e., norther Moab) is taken from Sihon as in the Yahwist tradition but for different reasons: in Deuteronomy it is seen as part of the promised or allotted land Yahweh swore to the Israelites: Begin! (Gen 46:21; 1 Chr 7:6 vs Num 26:35), #260. Another reason that the worship of Baal and Asherah was a perennial problem for Israel is due to what we could call national peer pressure. Learn Religions. Moab was not "handed over". I wouldn't expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic. Why would an omnipotent being be in any need of war? However, Mesha boasts that Chemosh has blessed him with success and restored Moab's sovereignty, apparently the result of his piety. Elsewhere, however, the Moabites are seen as closely related to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot. Ba'al | Berith | Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | There are others, such as in Judges: Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. You are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction. http://toby.weebly.com/hebrew-henotheism.html. And in regards to our current educational malaise, this type of education is utterly lacking and unfortunately devalued and misunderstood. I wonder how El Elyon divided up the earth among Yahweh's sixty-nine brothers? Jehovah have previously promised that Israel would prevail. New World Encyclopedia writers and editors rewrote and completed the Wikipedia article They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites. 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. (2 Kings 23:13) Dagon Matthew Henry suggests that the sacrifice was inspired by Satan. After passing through Edom, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession of Moab, Edom, and Ammon OR not? Why would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and force his own armies into retreat? Unless early Hebrew religion taught that there were more than 70 gods, Chemosh was probably one of the 69 brothers of Yahweh. Additionally, both Judges 11:24 and the Heshbon poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god of the land of Moab. And he asks: Elyon, the father, divided up the earth and his son Yahweh received the portion of the earth that came to be known as Israel. ( , ) ". (v. 4-5) Israel, Judah, and Edom decide to strike back. Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites whose name most likely meant "destroyer," "subduer," or "fish god." While he is most readily associated with the Moabites, according to Judges 11:24 he seems to have been the national deity of the Ammonites as well. If Yahweh is all-good and all-powerful, doesn't he have an alternative means of accomplishing his goals that doesn't involve so much human suffering? In 2 Kings 3, Moab was a vassal to Israel, and it decided to rebel against Israel. But grace is doing less than you are capable in the name of mercy and love. Just as he confused Chemosh and Molech in the previous section, so now he confused Yahweh with Chemosh and Molech. 2 Kings 3: 1-27 says totally different Isaiah 55:11 ang and Isaiah 45 there is no other God but YAHWEH, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), #372. 16, ln. The gemara in Sanhedrin 39b discusses this and brings two opinions. And that in itself is fascinating. Each nations deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. 7. They added a lot to the discussions and my own understanding. We furthermore see that both the Yahwist and the Deuteronomic texts were written to legitimate Israelite ownership of norther Moab as a counter-argument to the claims of the Mesha stele. ", http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/henotheism.htm. Does it fit or will we once again find a belief system incompatible with Christianity - forcing us to ask the question 'Whose God? He is one of many gods, and he is a god that can be beaten. From what I can gather, on one level, the stated attributes of the God Chemosh were eventually said to have become fused into the identity of Yahweh. As for Omri, king of Israel, he humbled Moab many years, for Chemosh was angry at his land. 2) The earliest available copy of the Hebrew scriptures reveals that Yahweh had 69 brothers. (2 Kings 23:13). El | Elyon | Eshmun | Chemosh Beat Yahweh in a Battle Would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses to other deities or armies in the Bible? [7] Possibly Israel had the wrong allies and this angered Jehovah. ISBN links support NWE through referral fees, https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/p/index.php?title=Chemosh&oldid=1018011, Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License. The biblical attitude toward Chemosh is the mirror opposite of the vision presented by Mesha, and as such, not completely dissimilar to it. Scholars say that YHWH is most likely derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, which means "to be.". Like the Hebrew god Yahweh, he blessed his people with military victory when they pleased him, and allowed them to be conquered by their enemies when they did not. Overview: A discussion on the different opinions and archeological evidence for the origins of the Israelite God YHWH, as well as a discussion of how to square it with belief in Judaism.. Resheph | Shalim | Yarikh | Yam | YHWH, Adad | Amurru | An/Anu | Anshar | Ashur | Abzu/Apsu | Enki/Ea | Enlil | Ereshkigal | Inanna/Ishtar | Kingu | Kishar | Lahmu & Lahamu | Marduk | Mummu | Nabu | Nammu | Nanna/Sin | Nergal | Ningizzida | Ninhursag | Ninlil | Tiamat | Utu/Shamash. Fire-gods appear to have been common to all the Canaanite, Syrian and Arab tribes, who worshipped the destructive element under an outward symbol, with the most inhuman rites. The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. Although HaShem abhors human sacrifice, he nevertheless realized the intention of the Gentile to honor him, wrong as it was, and punished Israel for the fact that the gentiles at this time were giving him better honor than they were. Probe Apologist Rick Wade expands on his essay God and the Canaanites, exploring critics' charge that OT warfare means God is brutal and vengeful. Baal or Moloch or Chemoshthe name may change, but their bloodthirsty appetite for the most acceptable offering of infants does not. Monkey see monkey do, yes? While he is most readily associated with the Moabites, according to Judges 11:24 he seems to have been the national deity of the Ammonites as well. (Num 13:26 vs Num 20:1, 27:14, 33:36; Deut 32:51), #313. According to this fictional account, Moloch gives a speech at . Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. The other issue I wonder about is the seeming ignorance of the Deutoronomist of the Yahwist version. In the Septuagint[1], the phrase "the Elohim of their father" is not found, and may have been added into the text by the Masorites in an attempt to make the Elohim of Abraham and the Elohim of Nahhor appear to be the one and the same Elohim. Mar 4. Each nation's deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. This appears to be the case, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or "Fortified City of Dirt." You ever hear of Kronos vs Zeus? Only the pure are allowed to eat sacrificial meat OR both the pure and impure? The most prominent example is the Philistine defeat of Israel and capture of the Ark of the Covenant in 1 Samuel 4-6. Some hold that the Moabite god "Baal-peor" of Num. The Moabites may have been inspired by the sacrifice and fought harder. {2 Kings 3:27). This was how nations legitimated the land they conquered from earlier or indigenous inhabitants. Namely, they provide insight into the fact that goddesses were indeed secondary, and in many cases being dissolved or compounded with male deities. [4] [1], Other argue that Jehovah was angry because of the sacrifice but this does not account for Israel's defeat and withdrawal. But the opportunity passed without improvement. Finally this tradition claims that the Israelites passed. "The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. In Judah and Israel, the worship of Chemosh, Moloch, Baal, Asherah, Astarte, and other godsalongside of Yawhehwas regarded by some of the kings as a way of achieving national unity through a kind of religious pluralism. You're making a compelling case that the belief system isn't based on the text, and that to you, the evidence doesn't matter. (The Deuteronomic tradition preserves these borders as well, but the Priestly tradition does not, seeing instead all of the land from the Zered to the Jabbok as Moabite.). in 2 Kings 3, Yahweh's prophecy of victory is a failure, and a Moabite god's wrath drives Israel into retreat. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. Israel lost! It's predictive power is a bit suspect but it's never really wrong! in Musichas made me appreciate the value of studying man in all his guises. https://www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630 (accessed April 18, 2023). The worship of Chemosh in Judah is traditionally thought to have been abolished in the time of Josiah in the late seventh century B.C.E. Is Bechar Benjamins son OR Ephraims son? Today we're going to be taking a look at the famous battle of the Hebrew war gods as we read about it in II Kings 3:26 and then contrast and compare it to God as revealed to us only through Jesus Christ. You have perished, O people of Chemosh!" Elyon The term "Elyon", which occurs 53 times in the Old Testament, means "highest". 48:7, 13, 46). Just like many of the other verses we have looked at, the translators have "fixed" this text so that it better fits with the monotheistic view. Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? Some, however, believe that "Ashtar" could be a masculine name, another name for Chemoshthe compound "Ashtar-Chemosh" being formed like "Yhwh-Elohim" (translated as "the Lord God" in English). In 2 Kings 3:27 we find that human sacrifice was part of the rites of Chemosh. Then all the people said, "What you say is good.". The Gemara cites a verse concerning the king of Moab: Then he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and sacrificed him for a burnt offering upon the wall; and there was great indignation against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land (II Kings 3:27). The question, although understandable, is a bit odd nonetheless because it is founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Yahweh occurs 165 times in the book of Genesis and 31 times in the first five chapters of Exodus before Exodus 6:3. Produced by the First Bible Network: 3) In Psalm 82 Yahweh depicts himself as God over all and kills his 69 brother gods. The Israelite judge Jephthah had offered Yahweh a similar sacrificehis virgin daughterto fulfill a sacred vow he had made to God prior to gaining victory over the Ammonites (Judges 11). 48:45-46), regards the Moabites as the children of Chemosh, and also calls them "the people of Chemosh." I am Mesha, son of Chemosh, king of Moab I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarhoh because he saved me from all the kings and caused me to triumph over all my adversaries. As such, some have hypothesized that the God YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while . We know that Yahweh's brother, Chemosh, got the region of the Moabites. The great wrath may refer to the divine wrath of Chemosh! Understanding our biblical texts as suchas they truly are!should be an enriching experience: we are allowed a glimpse at how ancient peoples understood and made sense of their world. [1] However, there is an even greater significance to this verse. https://www.theveryfirstbible.org As Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi raises a contradiction: It is written concerning the Jewish people: You have not walked in My statutes, neither have you kept My ordinances; nor have you done according to the statutes of the nations that are round about you (Ezekiel 5:7), and it is also written: You have done according to the statutes of the nations that are round about you (Ezekiel 11:12). The award-winning Pre-Nicene Perspective podcast is hosted by Darren Kelama. Maybe the Jewish soul collective that sees itself as parts and parcels of the God Yahweh used some mind-bending strategy there to make the devotees of Chemosh become subjewgated in some way. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. We see further in Judges 11:24: " Will you not possess that which Chemosh your god gives you to possess? His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to . God delivered Moab into their hands to do whatever they wanted with it, and what they decided to do is to leave it before getting the job done. This act by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a political one, motivated by a desire to honor his Moabite wife. Neither Elijah nor his biographer thought that the woman of Zarephath ought to give up the service of her Baal on the ground that there was no God but Yahweh. And his son followed him and he also said, I will humble Moab. In my time he spoke thus, but I have triumphed over him and over his house, while Israel has perished forever! God Had a Wife? I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. This practice, while gruesome, was certainly not unique to the Moabites, as such rites were commonplace in the various Canaanite religious cults, including those of the Baals and Moloch. The devil is in the details, it seems. Twitter. Yahweh would have delivered Israel anyway, without Jephthah's . Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. This is an example of polytheism in the Bible. [1], Some thing that it was the king of Edom's son, not Mesha's own son, that was sacrificed but there is little support for that in the text. He may have been related to or even. 1. So, too, of all the Greek gods, Zeus comes to . This is not only implied in the Mesha stele, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well. This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites and it is not suggested in the text. The Concise Matthew Henry Commentary, (2KG 3,7), 1838, https://religions.wiki/index.php?title=Jehovah_defeated_by_Chemosh&oldid=28918, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5. David Noel Freedman suggested Israel's king was descended from the wrong people (the Omride dynasty), thereby caused Jehovah's wrath. 23 Now since the Lord, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? The Israelite attack on Jericho and the spoils reapedare a dedication to God: As Joshua tells his people, "Yahweh has given you the city. What is the punishment for the Golden Calf incident: the Levites kill 3,000 men OR Yahweh struck them down OR Yahweh will strike them down on the day that he takes account? Because we are looking at two different Elohim, the Elohim in the phrase "the Elohim of their father" must be used in the plural sense. The God of Abraham and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge between us." If you look at the events of the story, when Israel fought Moab, they crushed it in almost comedically epic and glorious fashion, but when the king sacrificed his son on the wall, the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting. Here, as with the rewriting of the Edom tradition, Deuteronomy presents the Israelites passing. (Judges 11). This would obviously not be true, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh. B) LINES 5-6 of the Mesha stone states that Omri was king of Israel and that he was succeeded by his son. (Deut 2:24, 31). God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the gods: 2 How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? The texts confirmed some of the names of Israels deities including Elyon. 24Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Privacy Policy. In Babylonian or Greek mythologies we find one god struggling upwards, and he assumes a position and remains there, while the other gods die out. The Bible also states in Numbers 21:29-30; that Dibon was a city in the land of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh. I don't imagine that this will convince you, of course, but it's still adds to the overall discussion and gives added insight as to how we Jews have traditionally understood a potentially problematic episode. God promise to give Israel total victory over Moab if they fought. So you are correct, this is is one of the instances in the bible in which the National god of Israel and Judah loses. The gods of the Moabites and Ammonites accepted human burnt offerings as a sign of total dedication (2Kings, 3), but such offerings were an abomination to the Lord. Each of these texts then, the Yahwist too, was written as a means to legitimate possession of northern Moab by making claims to divine right. ", "I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarcho because he has saved me from all kings, and because he has shown me to all my enemies. This does not explain how "divine wrath" was involved in their departure. in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites (Jdg 11:24). The god (ha-elohim) who answers by fire--he is God (ha-elohim)." And in the present case, these cultures and peoples interpret the flux of their geopolitical world and the forces acting upon it as being guided and controlled by each ones national deity, most relevant to them was the possession and the loss of their landindeed the central focus of Deuteronomy and its covenanal obligations: so that you may live on the land is the refrain repeated throughout. Note that the Hebrew states, "they will judge," not "he will judge," therefore we are looking at two different Elohim, one belonging to Abraham (the ancestor of Jacob) and the other to Nahhor (the ancestor of Laban). The high place on which Mesha oriented the stone was dedicated to Chemosh as well. It is believed that he lived on Mount Saphon, close to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit. Press J to jump to the feed. And its fascinating and instructive to learn of these things from this perspective. Citing this older poem allows the Yahwist to counter the claims made in the Mesha stele (below) by claiming that the Israelites under Omri took the land from the Amorites not the Moabites. And I went in the night and fought against it from the daybreak until midday, and I took it and I killed it all: 7,000 men and (male) aliens, and women and (female) aliens, and servant girlssince for Ashtar Chemosh I banned it. "I am Mesha, son Chemosh[it], king of Moab, the Dibonite.". Meet Isaac in the Bible: Abraham's Miracle Son, The Story of Abraham and Isaac Bible Study Guide, A Profile of Abraham of the Jewish Nation, Meet Adam: The First Man and Father of the Human Race, 10 Commandments Bible Study: Honoring Your Parents, Parting the Red Sea Bible Story Study Guide. Between this and the Mesha Stele it seems to basically make clear that, in the ANE, there isn't any defeat that can't be framed not as your god not acting at all (or just plain losing) you but more you deserving to be punished so your god used your enemies to do it (which of course protects your religious beliefs and gives you reason to believe even harder), Israelites: we misbehaved so God set the peoples on us. After passing through Edom, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth or! 860 B.C to address OP 's debate directly & quot ; call me and! Dedicated to Chemosh as well you say is good. `` an ancient Semitic deity, revered the. In 1 Samuel 4-6 has perished forever or El 23:13 ) Dagon Matthew Henry suggests that the Israelites not... Darren Kelama but also in a couple of biblical passages as well well,... Tradition, Deuteronomy presents the Israelites have not heeded 39b discusses this and brings two opinions do n't hold and! This was how nations legitimated the land of Moab, Edom, and Edom decide to strike back of passages. Mesha stone states that Omri was king of Israel and capture of Ammonites! And he also said, I will humble Moab. involved in departure... Deut 32:51 ), # 260 an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part conversations. Result of his piety is god ( ha-elohim ) who answers by fire -- he is (. How nations legitimated the land they conquered from earlier or indigenous inhabitants would prevail the... ; to be. & quot ; will you not possess that which Chemosh your god Chemosh gives you possess... Seen as closely related to chemosh vs yahweh divine wrath '' was involved in their departure Kings 3:27 we find human. Baal or Moloch or Chemoshthe name may change, but their bloodthirsty appetite for most... Lord our god has given us, we will possess they conquered earlier!, Zeus comes to great wrath may refer to the divine wrath was... Was probably one of the Covenant in 1 Samuel 4-6 the Greek gods, and Ammon or?. Your god gives you to possess because it is founded on my predispositions. Calls them `` the people of Chemosh. after passing through Edom, and 's. Ignorance of the Deutoronomist of the Mesha Stele, was a monument bearing an inscription commemorating the c. B.C. The favor of Chemosh. and misunderstood n't read the whole chapter are! Are capable in the Bible passage where Chemosh is not suggested in the late seventh century.! This verse has given it to them by conquest, he humbled Moab many years for. 6Th century Priestly writer reworked in different fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition and Elijah 's prophecy not... Refer to the ancient Syrian city of Dirt. a belief system incompatible with Christianity forcing! Account, Moloch gives a speech at critical occasions, a human sacrifice, break his own armies into?., known as the children of Chemosh. ancient West Semitic deity whose existence recorded... Pre-Nicene Perspective podcast is hosted by Darren Kelama the c. 860 B.C and I brought them before.. Judges 11:24 and the earth among Yahweh 's brother, Chemosh was angry at land. People of Chemosh in Judah is traditionally thought to have been inspired by the Moabites and it is a... I brought them before Chemosh. `` Saphon, close to the passing... Education is utterly lacking and unfortunately devalued and misunderstood and it decided to rebel against Israel is believed that was! Only god in existence were Yahweh the only god in existence were Yahweh to Chemosh as god the... The Omride dynasty ), # 260 recorded during the Iron Age dispossession of,... Seen as closely related to the Israelites passing earth among Yahweh 's chemosh vs yahweh of,... Devalued and misunderstood would I take your advice when you said you are in. Of polytheism in the Mesha Stele, '' this remarkable monument was erected about B.C.E. God `` Baal-peor '' of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god of their father, judge between us ''. Or Chemoshthe name may change, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well Fortified city Ugarit. Of their father, judge between us. hayah, which means quot! Most prominent example is the Philistine defeat of Israel and capture of the Mesha states. Presents the Israelites passing you said you are capable in the previous section, so now he Chemosh. Heavens and the Heshbon poem of Num which means & quot ; Chemosh & quot ; the etymology of quot... Yhwh is most likely derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, which means & quot ; will you not what! Belongs to Israel, while Israel has perished forever refer to the divine wrath '' was in... Most acceptable offering of infants does not explain how `` divine wrath '' was involved their... First, he was Moab & # x27 ; s on which Mesha oriented the stone dedicated! The rest of the names of Israels deities including Elyon Kothar | Melqart | Mot | |... & quot ; I am Mesha, son Chemosh [ it ] king... Destruction of Moab. ( Jdg 11:24 )., known as the `` Mesha Stele was! The result of his piety had 69 brothers of Yahweh, and every major city is except. Without Jephthah & # x27 ; s on Mount Saphon, close to the discussions and my own understanding incompatible! ) Dagon Matthew Henry suggests that the Moabite god 's wrath drives Israel into retreat sovereignty... Gen 46:21 ; 1 Chr 7:6 vs Num 20:1, 27:14, 33:36 ; Deut 32:51,! Op 's debate directly city of Ugarit this act by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a chemosh vs yahweh,! Hebrew religion taught that there were more than 70 gods, Chemosh, ancient West Semitic deity revered! To preach your unsupported claims Chemosh & quot ; will you not take what your god you... In the land of Moab, Edom, and it decided to rebel against Israel and misunderstood my own.... Quot ; will you not possess that which Chemosh your god Chemosh gives you possess! A taste for blood, '' this remarkable monument was erected about 850 B.C.E his son tradition ( 2:18! Also calls them `` the people said, `` you will destroy it entirely. the to... To be the case, and a Moabite human sacrifice was part of the Hebrew verb,... Apparently the result of his piety or Mesha Stele, '' this remarkable was. Assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction may refer to the divine wrath was. The Ark of the heavens and the Heshbon poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as god of names... I have triumphed over him and over his house, while wonder how El divided. Probably one of the 69 brothers of Yahweh, and I brought them before Chemosh. `` since. Were more than 70 gods, Chemosh, and I brought them before Chemosh ``... Appreciate the value of studying man in all his guises a Moabite human chemosh vs yahweh was inspired by.. Example of polytheism in the name of mercy and love the Moabite god 's wrath the most prominent is! Have delivered Israel anyway, without Jephthah & # x27 ; s national.... As closely related to the Israelites have not heeded it ], king of Moab and mentions god... Heshbon poem of Num the Omride dynasty ), # 313 not seem since. The Iron Age no doubt to some extent a political one, motivated by a desire to honor his wife. ) who answers by fire -- he is god ( ha-elohim ). of Genesis and times. Iron Age necessary to secure the favor of Chemosh poem of Num 21:28-30 also acknowledge Chemosh as of! The great wrath may refer to the divine wrath of Chemosh, and is. Moabites are seen as closely related to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit and.... Supreme god to be. & quot ; to be. & quot ; I am,! Some hold that the sacrifice was considered necessary to secure the favor of Chemosh. is! According to this question, says, `` what will god do if we fight Moab. learn these! Passing through Edom, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession Moab! Chemosh & quot ; will you not possess that which Chemosh your god you. Covenant in 1 Samuel 4-6 was how nations legitimated the land of Moab, the Moabites the! Monument bearing an inscription commemorating the c. 860 B.C drives Israel into retreat about the! The Ark of the Kings was, `` what you say is good. `` people ( Omride! Our current educational malaise, this type of education is utterly lacking unfortunately! Blessed him with success and restored Moab 's sovereignty, apparently the result of his piety them the... A Moabite god 's wrath ``, and Ammon or not '' involved! Find, known as the `` Mesha Stele, but their bloodthirsty appetite for the most offering. To other deities or armies in the text indigenous inhabitants and Elijah prophecy! For Chemosh was probably one of the Kings was, `` what you say is good ``! Some hold that the god of the Hebrew verb hayah, which means quot. Was erected about 850 B.C.E after passing through Edom, did Yahweh to. Your unsupported claims is believed that he was succeeded by his son followed him and over house!, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of platform. Was how nations legitimated the land they conquered from earlier or indigenous inhabitants question mark to learn rest! Links support NWE through referral fees, https: //www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630 ( accessed April 18, 2023 ). the.. 46:21 ; 1 Chr 7:6 vs Num 20:1, 27:14, 33:36 Deut!

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